GENE SIMMONS: BAT LIZARD ROCKS THE BOAT!

There was an appointed place: a hotel room in the gleaming steel rod Henry the Deuce built on the Detroit River to atone for the sins of his grandfather.

An appointed time and purpose; to interview.

But how to interview somebody whose records left one cold? I’d never been a part of Robert Duncan’s magical mystery tour, except for when he’d break into “Rock ’n’Roll All Nite” next door at the posh bar, and I’d join in pounding fists on the table, like a mute twisted cheerleader. But that doesn’t count—that’s just being obnoxious with your fellow editor. Huh? I didn’t eOen have a 14-year-old brother I could discuss Kiss with, and gain older sisterly insight into his bent little brain., My 14-your old brother is into sports. He listens to Richard Pryor records and marks time until his 16th birthday, when he’s sure everything will be cool.

Go see Kiss in concert, a few murmured. Yah. That confirmed the age group—12 and dropping—that make up the Kiss Army (Cheap Trick are picking them off at 13). I couldn’t marvel at the smoke and paint and general WOWness because the little weenies ^almost picked me off, just sitting there. You shouldn’t go to a Kiss .concert if you are over 5'2"; if puberty/ has knocked on the door and been granted admittance. You’re too vulnerable; you have things and know things that can be hurt Or taken away from you. There is nothing more powerful than a 12-year-old with a frenzy for Paul Stanley; there is nothing (read: you) she will allow to stand in the way of her passion. Forget it—go home.

So—in lieu of that, go gsk the one with the tongue questions, OK? Well, OK. How to deal with the fact (hat he doesn’t drink, not at all? We didn’t let it stop us. After all, we live in a • northern clime where anything still rtjoving at -40° deserves a shot just for good behavior. Bring on the Stroh’s and Wild Turkey (which Gene quaintly referred to as “your wine”).

THE CAST GS = The Bat Lizard SIV = I and I TO = The Therese

The Therese, yet another of Boy Howdy’s drones, was ployed to confuse the enemy. Its function: conversational lubricant.

SIV: The guys in the mailroom said to say hi to tongue man.

GS: Shit.

SIV: I dunno what to ask you...in tight of everything Duncan has written....

GS: Robert did bring...the obscure thing into it The Bat Lizard and the General of Tokyo or w atever it was. Interesting...1 never understc id what it was I was supposed to be doing... except that it sounded good. And ever since then, people have been calling me Bat Lizard. They go “Hey B.L.!”...

SIV: We started the “Kitty Kat” thing, didn’t we?

GS: I call him pussy...

SIV: Tell the joke.

TO: OK. 1 have a joke. What’s pussy whip?

GS: Peter Criss?

TO: No. Whipped cream for cats.

"I don't wanna buy a Blue Oyster Cult lunch pall."

GS: What does a gay snake do?

?????

GS: Ffffffffff. . . so guys, is this what you spend your time doing?

SIV: Everyone in Detroit is Polish. . .

GS: Really?

SIV: Well we aren’t but everybody else is, so we tell Polack jokes.

GS: I’m Hungarian.

SIV: Yes we know. Surely you’ve noticed the subtle allusions to it in the magazine . . .

GS: You know, I resent the world “subtle”. It should be either suBtly, or write it the way it sounds, SUTTLY. How could a “b” be sidle— how can a “b” be silent, -I mean?

SIV: How could you not say that? You would go nuts in France.

GS: No way. I stick with languages that are alive and still growing.

SIV: French is growing. All their new phrases like “le drugstore” and “le weekend”. . '

GS: Grrrreat. In that case I’ll stick with the language it came from. No, there’s something about France that doesn’t do it. I’d rather learn Japanese—I hqve been learning Japanese, as a matter of fact. It appeals to me more. I don’t like the holier-than-thou-ness of France. It’s over. Admit it. There’s now a new cradle'of civilization and it’s. . , here!

SIV: The only thing is, all we’ve got to replace it with is our trash culture...

GS: Yah, except it’s culture . . . trash it is, but it’s for the commonman! I love that concept! It’s not for the people who’ve got the money-^McDonald’s—it’s for everybody, it’s almost— you know what it is? It’s almost Communist art—that’s what it is. Stuff-for-people, not stufffor-the:people-with-the-money. Not for people who were born into anything. And that’s what I ...it’s not television for the rich! Lookit this stuff (Points to ever-babbling tube). . . In a different country, only people with money would have this kind of thing...this box. It’s like movies ) at home.

SIV: Oh, Gene, other countries have TV. England,..

GS: England sucks a wet bird. Haye you been there? Television goes off at 10:30! Two channels. {Three, Gene—Ed.) I saw a .three-hour show with Prince Ears—whatsjsname? Prince I Charles, I’m sorry. Natural mistake. He was talking about an 1860 person of royal blood, and the whole three hours revolved around her going from her summer home to the London palace or whatever.. And who traveled with her, x and what kinds of artifacts she left along the way. It was about a 100-mile trip, and the cameras retraced the steps, for three fucking hours! And this guy’s rambling on about how she went here or “something seerpala”—and NO COMMERCIALS! Did you see that? OH! I mean, it was enough to declare war oh them for! It was just the pits. But anyway, they have good. . . . groups.

What happens if you are a person in England, and it’s three or four o’clock in the morning...? SIV: You drink.

GS: You dream of that. Where would you— to where?

SIV: Clubs that are open after hours..,

GS: Well, again, you’re talking about the privileged set...

TURN TO PAGE 41

"Guys who start believing their own stuff wind up ...six feet underground."

SIV: No, a lot of them are cheap. Or you stock up on booze at a friend’s house...

GS: What happens if you don’t drink? You’re outta luck! I don’t drink! No TV? They deserve to be bombed and leveled. Absolutely. Television has gotta be...the sign that you’re up here. There’s no reason why they shouldn’t have television. I don’t mean just for commercial reasons, you can use it for educational purposes —do whatever you war)t with it, but 24 hours a day—MUST! Transportation stops at midnight, or something like that. 1 mean, JUST STOPS! ZAP!

SM: Minicabs...

GS: I prefer miniskirts. In New York or something you step out on the corner, you either get picked up or you stick your thumb out and the cab is there.

SM: But Gene, there are a lot of places in the States—most places—where TV goes off at two o’clock. '

^GS: That’s right, and the only thing that saves them is cable. And again, 1 don’t—.

SM/: And video cassettes.

GS: The great unifier. Well anyway. (To the Therese) What do you do at CREEM?

TO: Stuff like opening letters for the letters section.

GS: What kind of letters do you get? The one thing I keep hearing from everyone is—where do the CREEM people keep digging up their letters? You guys have to have the craziest letter section.

TO: Oh, we really get them. A lot of them are mad at you, for going around with Cher.

GS: Yes, yes. I’ve gotten that. Well...there’s hope, you know what I mean, I fuck around, I don’t just—1 mean, that’s the truth, I don’t know what I’m supposed to say. It’s funny, the pictures I’ve taken before, or have had my picture taken before with other girls—there was a Playboy foldout sometime, 1 don’t remember when—t never , had a big deal about that! Now what’s the big deal? .She’s a nice girl, and I’m having a good time, and that’s all. If anyone else has a proposition, they can knock on my door and offer me one. I’m open to suggestions. TO: That’s pretty.clear.

GS: So don’t be angry with me! If you wanta fool around, just call me up!

SM/: Therese is funny opening the letters, because she takes them all seriously. If they’re mad at us, she gets bummed out.

GS: Most of them knowthat if you want to get ahywhere with you guys, you have to sound like Lester Bangs and write something really off-thewall, and then you guys print it.

SM/: If they ju£t try to ape, Lester, if they try too hard, it doesn’t work.

GS.: Well, Lester’s become serious now, anyway.

SM/: Did you read the thing he did in the Voice about Sid Vicious?

GS: Not interested. Yeah, blit...I’m not interested in that. I mean, idiots that believe, their own hype usually wind up in that place. I mean, I feel sorry for the guy, but he wanted to live the lifestyle, so when you play with fire, as they say, expect to get burned...I guess I have...but (t’s true, you know—-the guys who start believing their, own stuff, no matter how romantic it is, wind up in the most unromantic place of all, six feet under the ground. So let ’em play.

SM/: That’s more or less what Johnny Lydon’s been saying to the press..

GS: That’s why he’s the guy who’s gonna wind up the most...you-l$now. I think McCartney’s another guy. He’s the guy who remained level-headed and worked—and he’s the one. who started Apple and did all that stuff. I think possibly Lennon really believed all the stuff he was talking about—like Christ, and war and art as disposable—you know, throw this book or steal this book. GOD, give us a break. Gimme a McDonald’s and let me watch TV.

"WOW! Wotta cool guy!"

SM/: Uh, Gene. On the solo album—why Sammy Davis, JrT"

GS: Because that question would come up. I mean, the most obvious things—Aerosmith, Ted Nugent...and everybody thinks it’s just wonderful, and everybody plays guitar, and everybody plays rock ’n’ roll, but imagine being Sammy Davis, Jr. all of your life and wanting desperately to have a chance to rock out. Dinah Shore—loves doin’ her stuff, and she’s got to stay true to her stuff. But she loves rock, she looooves rock! ^

SM/: She did what has to be the worst version of “Satisfaction” ever, on her show.

GS:' She just doesn’t have anybody there saying “No, Dinah, it’s not like that—you’ve gotta sing from UHHHHH” (makes noises deep in his chest), you know the guf, and don’t “Ahhhhh” (does a dainty soprano vibrato)— don’t do that! All these people are trapped— everyboay’s trapped in their own stuff, you know?

S M/: I was going to ask you your ten favorite scifi movies...

GS: Uh-. Oooh. Ten favorite sci-fi movies: Metropolis (1925), Fritz Lang produced, Thea von Harver wrote it—that’s his wife, uh...Forbidden Planet (1956)—terrific movie, 20 Million Miles to Earth—Roy Harrihousan did the special effects—I mean, they’re obscure, but they’re wonderful. Is Jason & The Argonauts, I mean, is fantasy OK? Seventh Voyage of Sinbad— classic. Well, King Kong definitely has to be one of them. Do you mean sci-fi, or sci-fi/horror? SM/: No matter.

GS: In that case: Frankenstein, Nosfaratu (1925), F. W. Mumeau produced, Max Schreck as the infamous vampire. German. Bride of Frankenstein (1935). Sorry, 1937. No, I’m right, 1935. Ernest Thesiger as Dr. Praetorius, Colin Clive as Victor...Karloff, Elsa Lanchester...Jack Pierce did the makeup, of course. Island of Lost Souls, with Charles Laughton as Dr. Moreau. That’s gotta be close to ten—is that ten? Well, Star Wars has got to be in there. 2001.

SM/: The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari?

GS: Sure, 1927. Silent

SM/: No, Gene, 1917. Silent. I finally saw Destroy All Monsters a few weeks ago.

GS: Oh, you mean the group?

SM/: No, although I saw them, too. The movie they named themselves after.

GS: Oh, yeah, all the monsters are in that one—Ghidra, the three-headed monster and (attempts Oriental soprano) “Maserai uh Maserai uh”...It’s true! The two little girls sang that. Every time I hear the producers or stars of those movies, it always sounds like “guacamole” to me. Tetsu Guacamole.

SM/: I like the ones Nick Adams was in.

GS: GodziHa, with Raymond Burr, 1957. Nick Adams, yah. The Rebel.

SM/: “Johnny Yuma was a rebel...”

GS: “He roamed through the West...”

(Food is served, and drinks—for T.O. andS. W. only.)

GS (To the Therese): Do you want some of this weird stuff?

XO: What is it?

(We leave Gene to his iced Tab.)

SM/: One thing you gotta say for England, Gene..Over-the-counter codeine.

GS: That’s good if you like that kind of stuff. I’m kind of boringly straight.

SM/: Surely you jest. That’s medicinal. You must not have a problem with colds, then.

GS: Boy, I got a whiff of that waiter—I don’t know if he had one, or if he’d been in that suit all day. He smelled like a roving moose in heat. (T.O. drinks her beer and S.W. slugs down a shot of Wild Turkey. Gene ponders whether the gentlemanly thing to do would be to pour T.O. ’s beer into a glass. He does so, against her will.) SM/: Hard-ass Detroit girl.

GS: God bless anybody with a hard ass. So! E>o you guys get groupies, or what?

TO: Once there was a fur robbery downstairs from us in Birmingham...

SM/: ????

GS: FUR ROBBERY! You mean somebody got it? Who—who’d they get?

TO: They got the furs!

GS: Where I come from furs mean different things. Somebody took yer fur, y’know?

TURN TO PAGE 70

GENE SIMMONS

CONTINUED FROM PAGE 41

(It was time to play “gotcha”. “Gotcha” was a habit of a Serbian ex-boyfriend of SIV’s, you point to a phantom area of the victim’s torso— hejooks, then SMACK ’em on the chops.) SIV: Therese, you are closest to Gene, so you do it. (Cheap.)

TO: OK. (Leans over, points to Gene’s shoulder. He looks. Smack!)

SIV: Bullseye.

GS: Gee guys...that’s real...swift.

(A discussion of the difficulties of small record companies)

SIV: Well, some acts have been able to do it...Devo started small. Then they got their Warner Brothers contract.

GS: And now?

SIV: Do you like them?

GS: I have no idea. I haven’t heard anything about them...I mean,”! heard “We Are Devo”, but that’s all. I can only comment on what I’ve seen. If you want an opinion, I’ll give it to you, OK? I’m a fan of the masses. I like ice cream, McDonald’s, comic books, Kiss, horror movies .. y’know, so you have to understand the perspective. Devo will not be a big band. I’m not even saying whether they’re good or bad, it’s got nothing to do with it. It’s got to do with the taste of the masses. Nobody is ready in America for subtle rock ’n’, roll. Like—Bryan Ferry, Roxy Music. I had tons of fights with everyone 1, talked to—1 said I don’t care if they have a hit record— it just will not happen. No way. Nobody wants a father figure onstage. Or, you know, Valentino —he’s too far removed! You’ve got to have somebody they can understand, and no tonguein-cheek humor unless it’s really tongue-incheek, y’know? You’ve got to bop them over the head.

If you’re Jackson Browne, fucking play your acoustic guitar and sing^ about all the stuff...if you’re skinny, be REAL skinny, if you’re fat, be REAL fat—no chubby guys. Stuff about the masses, is that it all goes with extremes. American tastes are like that, that’s why American food is not popular. The stuff that’s sweet is real sweet, and stuff that’s bitter is REAL bitter. I mean, it’s extremes. Slapstick comedy and America, that’s what it’s all about.

SIV: But everything you say is true about Devo —they’re spuds.

GS: No. I don’t believe so. I think it’s real class, sophisticated kind of rock ’n’ roll. I don’t know what those costumes mean, the name is very ambiguous...I know where the reference comes from, it comes from an H.G. Wells paragraph in Island of Lost Souls, with Dr. Moreau, where Dr. Moreau is on top of a hill. He’s raised these animal men; he’s transformed these animals into half men. And he always tries to keep them from going too far overboard and attacking each other. He snaps his whip and says “What ees the law??” and they go, “Dee law ees, we shall not eat fllesh, for are we not men?” and they all go, “Are we not men?” and he goes, “What ees the law?” “Dee law ees, we shall not drink blood, for are we not men?” then they all go, “Are we not men?” That’s where they go, “No, we are DEVO.” Nice. Cute. But if I’m 15 years " old, and I’m from Davenport, Iowa, I could give a shit. I mean, give me Van Halen (a plate crashes to the floor). Give me Van Halen, Cheap Trick, or somebody like that that I can sink my teeth into. v

SIV: But Devo—you can take them on any level you want to. When ^ first heard them, I had no idea what the derivation of their name was, I just thought it was funny.

GS: Funny1 and rock ’n’ roll doesn’t work.

SIV: Cheap Trick?

tGS: I don’t think they’re funny! I think you can take ME both ways. I don’t! But there are grownups out there who say “Heyyy, you’ve got a sense of humor—he sticks out his tongue; we know what that means.” But the people “out there” take it seriously. The point about the Tubes, for instance; I said the same thing five years ago—not a chance inlhe world! No way! I don’t care how good the music is, America is just not gonna take the Tubes to their bosom, because when you start making fun of yourself, when you start not taking yourself seriously, when you do sarcastic kind of stuff, you wind up cutting your own fucking throat.

StV: Oh come on, you can’t tell me Rod Stewart isn’t making fun of himself onstage.

GS: I think that’s a sophisticated way of looking at it; you can look at anything two ways. It’s like, is a glass full, or is it empty? It’s that kind of stuff! I think Stewart plays it straight! He could be going “Am I swishing?” I think one of those kids out there that goes OHHHHHHHHH” whenever he does that, they’re scream-■ ing, it’§ ■not “Ha! How swift...what a double entendre! Interesting move, there! I can see it ~ both ways!” Bullshitvlf you look at something as

LCD: lowest pommon denominator (Thanks— Ed.) that’s what it is. Why is Charlie’s Angels on TV? What are the biggest shows on TV? Not anything with a lot of depth; it’s REAL1 easy to understand, and there are NOT two or three different levels. Most people who went to see 2001 didn’t go to see the different levels and stuff, they went to see it coz it was WOW!

SIV: So, people get things on different levels!

GS: I believe the masses are not. I believe the majority; witness Jaws, witness Star Wars— the biggest movies of all time, the biggest

GROUPS of all time—flat as a rock! Take it for what it’s worth! Even the Beatles were supposed to be meaning all this stuff; when McCartney was interviewed he said “No, they were just nonsensf rhymes—we just rhyme words, they never meant anything.”

“Lucy In the Sky With Diamonds”—did not mean LSD—tit didn’t mean ANY of that shit that intellectuals always have to preoccupy themselves with. It was a picture that his son dreu/on a piece of paper, and John said “What is this?” " And he said, “That’s Judy, she’s in the sky, and she’s got diamonds on her head.” What a great name for a song! The assholes out there who have to think...

What does this mean, Sue? (A hockey garrie is unfolding on the TV screen) Why is this man wearing a mask? A study in sado-masochism! The futility of the human race! t

SIV: Is there anything wrong with appealing to "people’s &“higher instincts”, shall we say? Not underestimating them?

GS: Absolutely not. My point is simply; I’m not saying whether it’s good or bad, I’m just saying there’s not a chance in a hundred.

SW: But I really think the be^t performers are able to appeal to the broadest range of people with condescension or elitism. And you can tell if someone like Stewart is swishing around like an old tart with a wink in his eye..:

GS: But you’re not an average fan! Look at what you’re doing for a living!

SW: Nah, I’m too much the fan, and not enough the critic.

GS: So you’re saying that Zeppelin and Stewart operate on different levels?

SW/: People take them on whatever level they want to...

GS: I think you’re fooling yourself. I think the masses out there—you’re giving more credit to everybody than I think they deserve.

SW: Now, the masses in America—

GS: And that’s what we’re talking about. I wasn’t even talking about good or bad, but about what works.

S W: Let me give you an example. My brother’s stained glass shop in Ypsilanti—they have all these workers, a range of ages, who are all down in the basement, making stained glass lamps. And for the past few weeks, they’ve all been singing “Are we not men? We are Devo”, as they work.

GS: There will always be people like that; people who like the Ramones—

SW/: These are not “hip” people...

GS: I know—Patti Smith—real hip. I mean, it was, real hip to like Patti Smith—

SW/: ?????

GS: I said WONDERFUL, I think it’s terrific, and they said well what do you think, does she have a chance? I said, “No fucking way!.” There’s not a Chance in a million. Where does the hero worship come in? How do you get the impression that a performer was bigger than life? The reason that punk didn’t catch on in this country is real simple; there’s nothing to admire. In England it’s a social statement; here’s it’s a joke! In England when you see a guy onstage saying “working class hero” and all of that—& great! Makes a lot of sense, but you don’t give a fucking shit here—you’ve got two cars, you know? We’re living in dreamland, which is why when you get up onstage it’s either got to be just amazing tunes, which works on that lejvel because they imply that the writer’s got some great stuff going on in his brain—or, it’s a teal personality, it’s charispna—whatever those words mean. As soon as you start working on different levels; as soon as you start making fun of yourself, IT’S OVER! Y’know, I was a great Alice Cooper fan, but as soop as he started to say that it was—you know—a character that he didn’t believe in himself/it’s over! I said, fuck you! Are you gonna make fun of yourselft Elton was the same way. Great Elton John fan; he said, “I’m bored with rock, I don’t want to perform,” —I said “Fuck you!” Billy Joel: Number• one! (Another plate falls to the floor.) You know —anybody that, thinks'they’re too big for their britches, it’s all right. There are a lot of up and coming guys who’ll do it. The same with— remember the Stones took two years off? Aerosmith—bang!

SW: With Elton it was personal problems... GS: That’s all right, but he should’ve kept k to himself. Nobody’s fucking business, y’know? I mean, I could be in the middle of a conversation with somebody, but because I’ve got to take a shit doesn’t mean that the conversation is “GUESS WHAT, I’ve got to take a shit!” Who wants to know?

SW: But even if Devo is never huge commercially—

GS: I think it’s wonderful that there are always gonna be bands who are willing to be cult bands. And I don’t mean BOC fans, but cult fans...Blue Oyster Cult is a perfect example—I LOVE THAT BAND! But there’s no hero worship, no charisma...! don’t wanna buy a Blue Oyster Cult lunch pail! There’s nobody in that band that goes WOW! Wotta cool guy! Whatever that means...And there are a lot of people that have that kind of stuff that I don’t recognize, and yet, I know other people do. You know£ You can be cool to different kinds of people. Barry Manilow is cool to a lotta people out there.

(Liquid courses down throats at an alarming clip.)

GS: (Nothing will stop him now) First album or two you can usually tell whether a band’s got it or not. Some guys', it takes four or five bands to figure it out. Cheap Trick I think is going to be a huge band. Van Halen—already there! Y’know —next tour they can do their own stuff. Who’s gonna do it? I think the Cars will do fine.

SW: But they have no definite image...

GS: (Ponders) It’s an interesting look.

SW: What is it?

GSWell y’know, Ric Ocasek’s a weird tall guy. In other words, I can look at the band and it’s a certain look, and then individually...With Devo, they’re faceless] First of all, there are too many people in the band. I mean, give me a name— who’s in it? It’s Chicago without the music, as far as I know.

SW: The Mothersbaugh Brothers. Booji Boy. They’re very colorful, actually.’

GS: Yah—so that’s the problem; it’s real sophisticated. We change our outfits only once a year, and it’s always real close.

SW: They’ve only got two changes, really. GS: Too much, too much! There’s only a first album and they’re already doipg two costume changes!

TO speaks: Well, you can’t have everyone being the same, wearing the same costume all year round. Ooops—! (realize? insult)

GS: The first year, the first tobr? Ab so lutely. Let me tell you—I made several bets with people—Mr. Nugent will tell you—I made a bet with Peter Criss that Ted Nugent would happen in two years...three years ago he was opening up for us—Ted Nugent & the Amboy Dukes— y’know, the guitar battles and all that stuff. There was no question about it; this guy goes out there and kicks ass—doesn’t stop. Makes a simple statement: I play guitar, and I play it loud, and I don’t stop moving from beginning to end. I said, Boy, that’s right there.

It’s like a boxer who comes in, and you know exactly where he is from the jab. Some guys go a little bit of this, a little bit of that, you don’t know...I’m spending a lot of words. Except I think I know what a lot of people want. Rock ’n’ roll has always been more than , music; it’s style...all kinds of styles. It’s not enough to just get up onstage anymore. And I don’t mean that you have to paint your face and look weird...like I do. Care about yourself...if yoy want to be Ted Nugent—GREAT—make the amps look big, and put out—put on a show.

(Another argument ensued, concerning Shakespeare, that we won’t derange the readership with. Suffice it to say; SW barked about how Shakespeare was an example of a “popular” artist who appealed to different types of people on different levels; GS scoffed that Shakespeare-died penniless; an indignant comparison of English degrees was the final stage of the verbal duel. GS conceded “doubt,” and “if I’m not sure, I’ll retreat.”

TO: Did you know turkeys were descended from dinosaurs?