"See, me and Prince had a deal..."

"See, me and Prince had a deal..."

FEATURES

J. Kordosh

(In the mid-’70s, Pepe Willie—a New York writer, musician and producer—went into the Cook House Studio in Minneapolis with two teenaged musicians, Andre Cymone and Prince Nelson. At the time, Willie was married to Nelson’s first cousin, Shantel Manderville. A number of tracks were recorded, which have surfaced on a six-song record, Minneapolis Genius: The Historic 1977 Recordings.

Although Prince doesn’t sing on the record, he does play on all six tracks, and co-wrote ‘‘Just Another Sucker” with Willie. The tracks are the earliest recordings of Prince available, and the only known pre-Warner Bros, sessions in existence.

Here, Pepe Willie explains his relationship with the youthful [and latter-day] Prince, how the Minneapolis Genius sessions came about, and why he waited so long to release the recordings.)

Have you heard from Prince about this thing at all?

Uh—yeah, you know (laughs). He likes the album.

Have you talked to him yourself, or have you heard this through the grapevine?

Uh, no, well, I heard it, basically, through the grapevine. ’Cause I haven’t been able to hook up with him as of yet. You know. When I called him, he was out of town, that type of thing.

Did you talk to his management before you released this album?

Urn hum. Sure.

Did they have any problems?

Did they have any problems? Well, I guess so (laughs). Uh—you know, I guess when someone like Prince reaches the type of recognition and stardom (laughs) that he’s getting at this point, I guess that nobody would basically want anything old to come out. I mean from the early years. But—it happens, you know?

“Everybody in Prince’s band will tell you that they wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t for me— especially Bobby Z. and Matt Fink. ” -Pepe Willie

But you understand that Prince himself is not unhappy about all this?

Oh, no! As a matter of fact, he bought an album.

Did he really? How do you know that?

You know, he’s giving me support...! supported him for a lot of years and I really appreciate him giving me support even just buying an album, you know?

Let’s go back to when this was recorded. How old were you and how old were Andre and Prince?

OK, well, they’re all around the same age, so Prince was, like, 16...Andre was around 16 or 17. Myself, I was around— I’m telling my story now—I was around 25 or 26. Somewhere around there.

I’d like to get some background on you. What had you been doing up until then?

Mainly, I was just writing some songs and trying to place some with other artists and producing my own stuff and just trying to get a deal.

Were you a native of Minneapolis?

No. Originally I’m from Brooklyn, New York.

What took you out to the great Midwest?

Well, my uncle’s group, Little Anthony & The Imperials, were playing at the Copacabana in New York and he was dating this young lady. And this young lady had a niece who’s name was Shantel and that’s Prince’s first cousin. Shantel Manderville. In fact, her mother and Prince’s mother are twins.

Is that right? Is Shantel about Prince’s age?

Uh, no, she’s a little older. She told me about her cousin—she said her cousin played music and stuff like that and that he was very interested in talking to me, because she had talked to him about me. So Prince used to call me up, in New York, and ask me musical questions. What did he want to know?

What’s publishing, you know, what’s copyright, who pays you when your songs are played on the radio and how do I get into the mainstream of the business, basically. That’s what he wanted to know. Were you a consultant at that time?

Uh, no. I was working with them (the Imperials) as their valet. So then, later on, Shantel and I got married and I moved to Minneapolis. And that’s when I met Prince.

How did he impress you?

He was great; he was unbelievable. Y’see, I’d seen artists all my life since I was 16 years old—like, I grew up around artists. Stevie Wonder and Gladys Knight & The Pips, Dionne Warwicke, the Miracles, Diana Ross & The Supremes— You know, the whole thing. ’Cause I used to go to the store for all of those people when they came into Brooklyn to do shows. And I just went to the store for them and worked with them—and so when I met Prince, I knew he was a good musician. Then when I heard him sing, I said, “Wow, this guy can sing, too.” (ilaughs) So I talked to their manager, who was Morris Day’s mother, at that time— she was managing the band, they were called Grand Central and I started workCONTINUED FROM PAGE 19

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ing with the band for about three, four months. Just working with them; trying to get their material strong enough to take them into the recording studio.

At that time, you intended to produce Grand Central?

Right. And a friend of mine owned Cook House recording studio and we went there and we had them set up and play. The only thing was, they played Top 40 stuff better than they played their original material. At that particular time. So we had to go back to the drawing board, so to speak.

So during that time I had asked Prince to play on some stuff that I was producing— and that’s some of these tapes here. Some of the songs on the album.

How did he handle it?

He totally loved it. And even then he was a perfectionist, ’cause he made a couple of errors—they weren’t really even errors, it was just somethingthat he didn’t like (laughs)—and he called me up and said, “Pepe, I gotta do this part over.” And I says, “What part? What are you talkin’ about?” (laughs) And he says, “I gotta do this part over, man, it’s not right.” And so I just said, “OK, just go ahead in, I’ll call ’em up at the studio and tell ’em you’re going in.” I knew at that time—because of the way that we’d worked together—that he could go in the studio without me being there. And lay down the guitar tracks to the tune he was doing. Even at that time?

Yeah, even at that time. We just worked so good together—see, we wrote “Just Another Sucker” together. He called me up about three in the morning—’cause he did the lyrics—and said that he’d finished the lyrics (laughs). Y’know what I mean? I mean, the guy knew that he had the talent, but it wasn’t enough for him to know that he could play instruments—he wanted to let the world know that he could do these things. He wanted to share it with the people.

How do you feel these sessions influenced Prince? Or did they not influence him?

My influence in Prince is still there.

In what way?

Well, in the construction of his music. When I met him, those guys didn’t have construction. They played a tune, then they jammed for 20 minutes. And I just said, “Well, look, man this is what you have to do: you have to have an introduction, then you have to have a verse and then maybe a music break or a second verse, and then a hook line, and all this stuff. And then you fade out or, you know, go out.” And it still holds today.

What made you decide that this was the time to release this material?

Because, see—I’m a very decent guy and I’m a very good-hearted person and the thing was, was that I was waiting, basically... not really sitting around, waiting...but doing other material and stuff like that; but waiting for Prince to just say my name, y’know? (laughs) Y’know, after all the things—I helped put his band together; he practiced at my house for six months when he signed with Warner Bros.

Wasn’t Bobby Z. your drummer?

Yes, Bobby Z. was the original drummer for 94 East. And when Polydor didn’t release our single and Prince had gotten signed to Warners, then I concentrated all my energies on him, because he a was friend, plus he was family and I didn’t want to see him get steered wrong.

When did Prince finally say your name?

He didn’t. (Much laughter)

Why do you think that is?

I would just say because he was too busy. Do you really believe that?

Well, they asked me to work with him at one point, his managers. It wasn’t Cavallo/ Ruffalo at the time, and I just didn’t want to do it at that time. Because I didn’t want to be under that type of control.

You mean under Prince’s control.

Right. And we had our little arguments and stuff like that but that’s how I gained his respect.

What did you argue about?

Urn...urn...doing interviews (laughs). What was there to argue about?

Because he didn’t want to do them.

Oh. Why not?

Y’know, he just didn’t want to do them. He just did not want to do them. He said he didn’t feel comfortable doing interviews and then I’d say, “Well, Prince, man, your record is doing good and you should call up the deejays and thank them or something for playing your record.”

When was this? What year?

It was when he’d first signed with Warners, on his first album. And he just didn’t do it. We argued about stuff like that, but we were friends an hour later.

When was the last time you actually talked to him?

Urn, well, last year.

What did you talk about?

We were talking about Morris Day (laughs).

What to do with Morris huh?

See, I consulted Morris—helped him to get the management he has now, and his attorneys and his accountant.

Was Prince worried about Morris?

Weil, you know those guys had a kind-of falling-out. And I tried to talk to Prince about it; I said, “Well, Prince, you know Morris loves you like a brother and you guys shouldn’t be arguing with one another.” I was kind of like the liaison man. The inbetween guy to keep things together. Prince was kind of upset at the time, and he said Morris didn’t care about his band, because he’d just left the band. And I said, “Prince, that’s not true. He paid the band for over a year, $8000 a month. And he didn’t even use the band, he was in California and he was still paying the band. That doesn’t sound like he doesn’t care.”

Have they patched it up, do you know?

Not as I know of. At this point.

What are your plans now that this record’s out and getting some notice?

My plans are to secure production deals with major labels and recording deals, so I can use my expertise. I just want people to know what Pepe Willie’s about.

Do you have any more stuff in the can—

Of Prince’s?

Prince or any of the other people on the Minneapolis scene then.

Yeah. I have Dez, I have some stuff on Andre Cymone, and I have some more tracks on Prince.

How many more with Prince?

I’ve got about five, maybe six more tracks on him.

Did you deliberately hold those back for a second record?

Well, there may be a second album. There may be.

Here’s a question: you said earlier that Prince was a good singer even then. Why didn’t he do any of the singing here?

The thing was, we never finished those recordings.

Why not?

We did the songs and the vocals that are on the record, those are the original vocals. The girls that sang with 94 East. We just never finished because Prince had signed with Warner Bros, before we finished. And when he got signed, I said, OK, and just dropped everything that I was doing—I said, “I can finish this later”—let me help Prince out. ’Cause I’ve seen a lot of groups go up and I’ve seen them come down in my time.

I didn’t want to see him get lost out there. When you did these recordings, Prince was a paid session man?

Yes, we paid him; he was a sideman. Looking back, there seems to have been a load of talent from Minneapolis in the ’70s.

That’s right. That’s when I went to Minneapolis. The first time I went to Minneapolis was in 1972, right out of the service. And nothing was happening in that town, as far as recordings. Most of the studios were doing commercials. You couldn’t find an engineer who’cf done records (laughs).

It doesn’t seem like Motown.

Exactly. And then, coming from New York, with the knowledge that I had—to me, I just opened up the town.

Did you really have that much of a hand in it?

Hey, I think I’m totally responsible for the whole Minneapolis action. Not by myself, because no one does it alone—

Have people come right out and asked you if this record isn’t just a way for you to make money off of Prince?

I say if that’s the case, then I could’ve put it out two years ago.

Right after Purple Rain.

Right! I could’ve put it out a long time ago if I’d just wanted to make some money. But that wasn’t the point. See, me and Prince had a deal, and the deal was: I said, “Prince, when you make it to the pop charts”—’cause I never took any money from him, never. And I used to get all his checks and I gave them right to him— Checks from who?

Checks from publishing. I started his first publishing company for him (Ecnirp). And I told him, “I can show you how to get all your money—I can’t tell you what to do with it—but I’ll make sure that it comes directly to you.”

Did you have an unspoken agreement with him—in your perception—that when he made it, you’d be along for the ride?

Exactly. It was like I told him: “Prince, when you make to the pop market, just mention my name.” That’s all. I mean, that’s all I wanted him to do.

/ just don’t understand it, then.

Yeah, I didn’t understand it, either. Everybody in his band will tell you that they wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t for me. Especially Bobby—Bobby would tell you that—and Matt Fink, because they were original members.

To me, the point is: now he’s made it so big, it wouldn’t hurt him.

It wouldn’t. It really wouldn’t. I really don’t understand why he didn’t do it. Why he didn’t say anything. ’Cause all he had to do is mention my name; I have strong material that’s just as good as anybody else’s. What do you think of Prince’s music nowadays?

I just totally respect Prince; it’s just like where his head is at. If he feels it, then he does it. And he’s at point in his career right now where he can almost put out anything and people would buy it. And he takes pride in all the stuff he does. I like his music now. I’ve always liked it—the only album I didn’t like of Prince’s was Dirty Mind. Because I’m not into dirty lyrics (laughs). 0