Mannish Boy Gets What He Needs

JANUARY 1978— Writer Barbara Charone catches the Big Mick days prior to the release of Love You Live and during a vital Stones period. Keith Richard—no "Richards" this year, thank you— was having legal problems in Canada and the possibility of a Stones without Keith was actually being discussed. We catch the band before their largest 70 s surge: Some Girls was in the planning and we all know what that would bring...

Mick Jagger sat athletically on the floor of the Rolling Stones’ New York office listening to The Best of Ray Charles. Next door, Keith Richard, nattily dressed in a white suit, was doing an interview with a gentleman from The Toronto Star. His eight-yearold son Marlon ran up and down the corridor playing with some promotional red lips and chattering teeth that said: “Love You Live.”

Three days later, the scene had changed slightly, The Best of Ray Charles sat silently on the office turntable. The man from Toronto had been replaced by a reporter from the Montreal Gazette, who was conducting a joint interview with the notorious Glimmer Twins.

During the stimulating discourse, a jet-lagged Jagger received a nasty electric shock by simultaneously turning on a lamp and the radio. Such are the perils of being a rock ’n’ roll star.

“Oh/uck. It’s not that rough,” Jagger deadpanned. “Just think—could’ve been worse.”

Nevertheless, Jagger was tired. He had just flown in from London, having completed another endless string of interviews to promote the eagerly awaited release of a double live Stones album, Love You Live. He complained of a lack of energy, made worse by the fact that the air conditioning was not working and the lack of oxygen was uncomfortable.

Besides, his teeth hurt. Caught in a bizarre role-reversal with Keith Richard, it was Jagger’s turn for a visit to the dentist. Despite the toothache, he looked well, with short hair and a nice smile. Wearing blue suede shoes, a faded university t-shirt and well-worn corduroy trousers, he recovered from the electric shock.

After finishing the final mixing of the live album, Jagger jogged back to Britain, catching the inevitable blast of green hair, safety pins, Johnny Rotten and punk rock.

“The punk rock scene is actually quite fun, ” he said, stretching his feet in the oxygen-less room, sipping a cold Heineken for relief. “It’s certainly more fun than it is here. There’s a lot more going on in the streets, though not as much as the media make you imagine. ”

While in Britain, he caught a few acts, “Some good, some rubbish,” and astutely noticed a lack of melody in the music. Creating quite a stir overseas, punk rock seems to be the first big musical movement since the Stones exploded 15 years ago. Yet, Jagger sees few similarities.

“It doesn’t remind me of 15 years ago at all,” he said adamantly. “That’s more or less a journalistic convention. It’s different enough to be interesting, but if it was completely the same, it would be really boring. The media give punk rock the same treatment, so a lot of the same cliches come out, and to everyone else it looks the same.”

Johnny Rotten, outrageous spokesman for the Sex Pistols, continually puts down the Stones and other established acts for selling out and making money. Yet, it seems inevitable that Rotten and company will be living the high life as soon as they can afford it.

" never play Stones albums, so I have no Idea what songs are on them."

“That doesn’t strike me as weird. You soon get to know how to manipulate people,” said this expert manipulator. “That particular band is quite good at that. The media are very easy to manipulate, especially in England. If you give them a tag, they’ll just go for anything,” he laughed, genuinely amused. “Once it works, it all becomes routine, selling the media the same crap.”

Despite the fact that British punk bands continually criticize the Stones, Jagger did not experience any hostile reactions from the kids on the street. And the Stones have always been able to relate to the kids on the street.

“I was actually waiting for the hostility, but it never came,” he laughed. “That’s just verbalizing anyway. When it actually comes down to it, they’re all right. If you confront them publicly, they would probably carry on that attitude for the sake of manipulating the media. But the actual people on the street don’t seem to worry. The kids are OK.

“I mean, some of those punk rockers say things like ‘oh, living out in Hollywood with film stars and stuff, but if I’m drinking beer in the same pub as them, they can’t really keep that up,” he rationalized. “It’s impossible to say ‘living in Hollywood with millions’ when you’re drinking in the same bars as them. So what can you do?”

Jagger himself is an expert media manipulator and has been since the inception of the Stones. Just the other week, he made some comments about Margaret Trudeau to a London paper, which turned up as the main item of the 11:00 New York news.

“Isn’t that stupid?”he laughed, more amused than interested. “1 said 1 wouldn’t touch her with a barge pole. That’s an American expression. Poor Margaret—I didn’t really mean it. That was just a tag for the story.

“I don’t really care much about the whole thing. It’s just boring that people keep bringing her up all the time. It’s so long ago. That was years ago. Yet, everywhere you go in the world, that was a really BIG story.”

Immediately following the Stones’ club dates in Toronto, the general public seemed more interested in Mrs. Trudeau’s sex life than the music. This perspective seemed somewhat offbalanced.

“Oh yeah,” Jagger agreed. “Gossip is always bigger than music.”

Yet the Rolling Stones of today try vainly to place the proper emphasis on the music rather than the trivial gossip columns. Despite the fact that they’ve become good copy, the music continues to grow stronger and more lethal. One whiff of the live album proved that instantly.

“It’s really difficult to get out of the gossip columns once you’ve gotten in,” Jagger complained. “Sure, I’d like to see a change. I don’t really like being in gossip columns. It’s not really what I like doing.

“But it’s been like that for so long. It’s no new thing. I’ve been in gossip columns since ’63-’64. It’s like a soap opera that keeps going on and on and on.

“I try to be as emphatic as possible about the music, but most of the reporters just want to talk about who you’re fucking or what happened to Keith. I don’t think they really want to know about music, especially the English dailies. They don’t want to know about no music crap so you might as well forget it.”

Perhaps the realistic solution would be to stick with such time-worn topics as favorite colors or ideal dream dates.

“Yeah, that kind of stuff,” Jagger said laughing. “My ideal dream date of the week. Japanese reporters still do that sort of stuff. They ask what’s your favorite kind of girl, what’s your favorite kind of hair!”

After the Toronto holocaust, the furor surrounding Margaret Trudeau dies down considerably. Yet, the public continued to kick up the dust about Keith Richard’s Canadian drug bust. In an interview immediately following the incident, Jagger told a reporter that the Stones would tour without Richard if necessary. Although in print, that black-and-white dialogue looked quite cold and unemotional, Mick Jagger is optimistic. More than anyone else, he’d love to see Keith Richard tour with the Stones. Well, almost as much as Richard himself.

“What I said was that if Keith went to jail for a long, long time, for ages and ages, then yeah, I’d go on the road ’cause I don’t want to retire from the road particularly. I mean that was just...it’s all hypothetical anyway. It’s either gonna happen or it’s not. Hopefully not.”

It’s hard to envision the Rolling Stones without Keith Richard. I wondered if that unfortunate situation arose, would Jagger view the group as more of a back-up band than the Rolling Stones?

“No, I wouldn’t have that attitude myself, but now you’re really hypothesizing. You’re .hypothesizing that if Keith can’t go on the road, what band would I tour( with. But you can’t hypothesize.” He laughed at all the unrealistic predictions. “What you could say is if someone left the band.”

Okay. So how important is Keith Richard to the Rolling Stones?

“Well,” Jagger drawled, taking his time before flashing a very large grin, “very important.”

Like most decent civilized rock folk, Jagger is optimistic that everything will work out and that the next time the Stones tour, Richard will be standing to his left as always.

“I don’t think it’s gonna be as bad as people think. If the worst happens, and Keith gets put in an open prison with Mrs. Trudeau for life, / am still gonna go on the road. Maybe we can play a tour I of Canadian prisons.”

That situation is more fiction that fact. On a more positive note, one side of the live album is culled from their appearance at the El Mocambo and contains four tunes not normally part of the Stones’ repertoire.

One of the great things about that particular gig was actually seeing the Stones on a small club stage, a feeling that has been smoothly transferred to the live album. Jagger particularly seemed to benefit from the change, both vocally and visually.

“Actually, I don’t think I worked harder. When I came offstage, I wasn’t really wiped out because there was no place to run. Running can be quite tiring. When you concentrate more on singing, you can hear the band better. That’s what I noticed.”

Visually, Jagger’s image was less Conspicuous onstage, giving him a one-of-the-boys rocker’s appeal. This too was keeping with the club atmosphere.

“Obviously, you don’t wear those sort of clothes at a club unless you’re a girl,” he said, referring to more flamboyant outfits. “If you’re a girl, you still do. If I was a girl, I’d wear pink. I’d wear pink anywhere. Actually, I think I did wear pink one night.”

With the addition of Ron Wood, the Stones have gone full circle, looking once again like a rough ’n tough rock ’n’ roll band. Perhaps Jagger will even wear blue jeans on the next tour.

“Blue jeans?” he shrieked in horror. “I’ve never worn blue jeans onstage. Never had a pair.”

Oh well, if not denims, perhaps something informal like his appearance right now in this hot and sticky office.

“Well,” he said, offering a long, drawn-out sigh, “you’ve got to stand out or else you disappear onstage. Also, street clothes are alright for guitar players. But you know,” he whined slightly, “if you’re gonna jump in the air, you can’t do it in a pair of trousers that will rip. If you’re gonna dance, you’ve got to wear clothes that stretch. Otherwise, you find yourself in a mess and everything gets twisted. That,” he snickered, “can be a bit uncomfortable.

“And there’s also that whole thing of putting other clothes on so you become another person. There’s this whole thing of changing into that other person in you.”

This, of course, is integral to Jagger’s onstage performance, priming the singer for the show.

“That’s an important part of rock. It’s nothing new. It’s been going on since there’s been stages and shows. Without thinking about it too much, it does make a difference somehow, in getting yourself ready for a show. Not just going on in what you arrived in, which is what we did for ijears, ” he laughed. “That was okay then.”

Jagger’s attitude towards club clothes is similar to his attitude towards club members. What works in Madison Square Garden doesn’t necessarily make it in a small, sweaty club.

“You have to have a different way of playing in a club, different numbers. You don’t want to play the same show ’cause it’s a completely different atmosphere. Something like ‘Mannish Boy’ is more suited to a small place. You have to have those numbers ready, even if it’s more suited to a small place. You

More than anyone else, he’d love to see Keith Richard tour with the Stones. Well, almost as much as Keith himself.

have to have those numbers ready, even if it’s just for a couple shows. You have to be very adaptable.”

Love You Live proves the Stones’ musical flexibility, perhaps more than any record they’ve done. Without a doubt, the excitement flies off the vinyl, creating the livest of atmospheres.

“Yeah, it’s a really good-sounding album,” Jagger said, typically nonchalant. “It’s very difficult for me to be objective about in any kind of honest way. I’ve played it and listened to it so many times that I don’t know if it’s wrong or right. I mean, it sounds OK.”

But the band certainly sounds more than “OK”, the guitars being particularly energetic and audible. The entire

album seems more in keeping with the Stones’ “greatest rock ’n’ roll band” tag than their last live album, Get Your Ya Yas Out.

“Is it?” Jagger wondered aloud. “Maybe it is. I’ve never thought of it that way—I’ve never compared them. Maybe I should play the albums one after the other. Maybe I’d have a nightmare,” he laughed.

“Obviously, there is a BIG difference between the Paris sides and the club side. The sound is more intimate—you can actually hear people screaming ‘SIT DOWN, SIT DOWN’.”

The pacing of the album, like the pacing of their live shows, is no accident, geared to draw excitement from each electrically-charged indivi, dual listener.

“Each particular side has its own pacing, so it will stand up on its own, too,” Jagger explained. “Each side is stacked together as well as the whole thing. It’s more or less the same order as the live show except for side three [Canada], which comes in the middle.”

The Stones are anxious to tour again and the chances look good. Before a tour, however, they’re set to record a new studio album which will be the first complete album done with Ron Wood, a latecomer to the Black and Blue proceedings.

“After the end of this week with the press in America, and last week with the press in England, I think I’m gonna feel like a wet rag,” Jagger laughingly complained. “It’s tiring being asked the same questions over and over again.”

To alleviate boredom and unnecessary monotony, we agree to discuss the new album, soon to begin recording in Europe. This topic is deemed acceptable.

“We could talk about the new album, but then that’s difficult,” Jagger said with a grin. “I don’t know what to say about it. I’ve written a lot of songs for-it which are REALLY GREAT,” he bellowed like a hard-sell TV advertiser.

“I hope it’s gonna be a good album. I always hope it’s gonna be a good album.”

Once, when discussing the Stones’ prolific recording career, Jagger said that he liked Their Satanic Majesties Request because the band took a chance. One would hope that the Stones would take a chance again, and this incarnation of the group seems to be the vehicle to succeed in breaking new ground.

“What, acid rock again?” he laughed before becoming serious. “I always say that—‘a markedly changed sound’,” he said, putting on his best British accent. “Changed into what, of course, is the next question. You can get a feel for the album from the songs that have been written. But there’s no use bragging about it or theorizing about it ’til we’ve at least started it. ”

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CONTINUED FROM PAGE 14

Keith Richards has been talking about recording the next studio album in a relatively short amount of time, rather than their usual studio behavior of starting and picking up over the course of a year. Jagger agreed that the album should be done quickly.

“It should be a good album," he said, with slight apprehension. “I’m hoping to get it done really quickly. Of course, that sounds very good now, but this time next year we’ll be sitting here saying ‘What happened to that really quick album?”’

Critics of the band have complained that some of their recent studio work has not been up to previous standards, regarding albums like Coats Head Soup, It’s On/y Rock V Roll and perhaps Black And Blue as transitional. Jagger laughs at transitional, and agrees it’s a good word.

What people mean by transitional is that instead of liking every tune on the album maybe they only like half. And it’s important on this next outing that each and every song is nothing short of excellent.

“Yeah,” Jagger sighed, hemming and hawing. “They should all be good. I think that before every album. But you know, you just do what you do the best that you can. We’ll do our best to make it as good as possible.

“Songs are always important. YEAH, this has to be a really great album,” he said emphatically. “But again, that’s what I usually think. Maybe we can make this one better than the others. I hope so. I’m very optimistic about it. What else can I tell you?”

I wondered what Jagger thought was the best studio Stones album.

“Well," he said carefully, tossing off a quick groan provoked by aching teeth, “if I don’t say the last one, that means I didn’t like it really...I don’t know. I don’t like any of them very much,” he said totally straight, then breaking into fits of laughter. Nothing is revealed. “I never play the albums, so I have no idea what songs are on them or anything.”

To refresh his memory, I reminded him that there were more than several excellent albums. But Jagger doesn’t use superlatives like excellent or even very good. For him, all right is a compliment and good honest-to-God praise.

“Yeah, well, you know the ones I like. The first album was good. Beggar’s Banquet was good. That’s about it.” He flashed a sarcastic grin.

Through the years, there have been those who’ve suggested that the Glimmer Twins need a helping hand in the studio, that the Stones need a producer to make that great album. Jagger partially agrees.

“Yeah, it wouldn’t be so bad if we had a producer, but it depends on the kind he was. I would like a producer but I don’t know quite who. I’ve been looking around for a while but haven’t come up with one yet. Whoever it is,” he threatened, “it’s got to be someone new. ”

Although they’re not sure of producers, this time out they are certain of guitar players. And when they finish the album, chances of an American tour are good.

“I’d like to go back on the road, but I’d like to get another album done first, so we h?ve a bunch of new songs to play on the road. We’ve never toured the States with Black And Blue so we’ve got that. And if we’ve got another album, we’ll have enough material to take around without having to do the songs we’ve been playing for too long, so we don’t get bored at all. ”

The general media attitude toward Jagger seems to be one of an inhuman creature, unemotional and unfriendly. Jagger seems to prefer playing music to creating mystiques.

“The mysterious Mick Jagger,” he said, laughing. “It’s that old journalistic claptrap. I don’t know if people really believe in it. Isn’t it crazy? To think we live in this funny world, some journalists really like to believe that.” And so do some of the fans.

“Actually, that’s not really how they seem to behave when I meet people. 1 find kids treat you very much like a normal person. They might get excited or nice. Sometimes they’re rude and start telling you about your clothes.

“I mean, just the other day a guy said to me, ‘Hey Mick, you should really get yourself some nice shoes and not wear those old sneakers all the time.'I even had a suit on and this guy goes ‘Gee,

I thought you’d have better shoes.’ Better shoes!”

Rather than spend endless hours shoe shopping, Jagger takes time to listen to music. He likes Linda Ronstadt’s version of “Tumbling Dice” on her Simple Dreams album, urges everyone to buy “hundreds of them.” He’s also been producing a John Phillips album with Keith. The album features good songs from Phillips and excellent musicianship from Richard.

When asked how he got involved with the Phillips project, Jagger was typically verbose. “Because he asked me,” the singer drawled.

Another name from the past has recently resurfaced, too. Jack Nitzsche, who worked with the Stones during the early years and later scored Performance, produces a band called Mink De Ville. Nitzsche thinks Willy De Ville, the lead singer, has the potential to be the next Mick Jagger.

“/ wouldn’t want to be the next Mick Jagger. I’d be the next Willy De Ville, if I was you, hon,” Jagger said, turning on a Southern drawl. “He’s a good singer. They’re not what I’d call a punk band—they’re a rock band, and they do old numbers really well.”

With the advent of Punk Rock, people have been carried away with classification, varying from Punk to New Wave.

“Yeah, all the classification seems a bit daft because people start declassifying themselves immediately because they don’t want to be in that classification. They want to be in another one. ya know? Those kids don’t want to be called just another rock ’n’ roll band. They want to be associated with something else.”

Which is exactly how the Stones first began, stepping out from late ’50s-early ’60s rock and moving towards American rhythm and blues.

“We wanted to be a blues band, but then gave it up because it was a complete waste of time. Keith kept saying we’re a blues band.” He laughed at the memories, some of which pleasantly haunt the live album. “I didn’t give a shit what they wanted to call it in the end. In the beginning we were very dedicated. We didn’t want to be called a rock band. ”

Because rock had bad connotations?

“Yeah, and also because we weren’t really a rock band. At that period of time, we weren’t what people expected a rock band to be. If we would have played rock places, we wouldn’t have gone down well at all because we weren’t that kind of band.

“We were a blues band that played in clubs. We weren’t a rock band that played ballrooms. We didn’t play any Eddie Cochran numbers. We neuerplayedany Eddie Cochran," he laughed.

But the earliest Rolling Stones certainly played Chuck Berry.

“Yeah, but Chuck Berry was not what rock ’n’ roll was .about at that time, ’ if I remember correctly. It was more like those Bobby Vee-type ballads. It was very difficult to break—really tough.

“There was no acceptance. No albums, no clubs to play in. There wasn’t fucking anything, ” he said, animated. “Just this fuckin’ Saturday night ritual. People used to go out just to pick up girls, and we’d just do cover versions of American hits.”

There’s no denying the Stones’ admiration and fascination with American R&B. On one of their first trips to the States, they recorded in the legendary Chess Studios in Chicago. And for some reason. I’ve always gotten the impression that Jagger wished he were American, perhaps even black.

“I suppose so,” he said reluctantly. “You know, it’s very difficult to admit that sort of thing. I suppose the answer is yes, I wish I was. I don’t know. If you act it, then you can be it for a while. Maybe it’s better that I wasn’t.”

Maybe it was better, for what made the Rolling Stones unique was their-British interpretation of American songs and heroes.

“Yeah, and we just couldn’t do it,” he laughed. “So we did something else ’cause we couldn’t do R&B exactly right. And because we couldn’t do it exactly the same way. we had to do it out own way.”

And the Rolling Stones have always done things their way."

“Inevitably,” Jagger said with authority. “You can’t do things other people’s way.”

Which brings us back to Love You Live, a twofisted record done Rolling Stones style from start to finish. Even if the songs are familiar, the versions are different because the musicianship is radically improved. It’s the kind of album that’s gonna turn a lot of skeptics into Rolling Stones converts.

“Yeah," Jagger said cautiously. “Then there’s all they can use against us. There’s no new numbers, it’s the same old tunes. But I think it’s pretty good.”

When talking about other bands, the highest accolade Mick Jagger will use is “all right.” When talking about the Rolling Stones, “good” seems to be the most positive adjective he will offer. But then, maybe that’s why the Rolling Stones are the best.