DEEP UP: The Mick Jagger Interview Part 2

(The following is the conclusion of an exclusive two-part interview. Last month Mick reminisced about childhood, first lays, early days with the Stones, and Brian. In this summary installment he waxes philosophical on the business, the people, and the effect that both have had on his mental and physical equilibrium. — Ed.)

Most bands who started around the same time as you have either returned to obscurity or are now appearing on Rock Revival Shows.

Well, it can’t go on forever. The thing that bugs me is that I get treated like The Grandfather Of Pop, just like James Brown is regarded as The Grandfather Of Soul — and I do get treated like that. Now I’m only three years older than David Bowie. Or is it two?

I don’t know why we’ve kept going. I think really because we were successful, but that’s sorta begging the question. The reason we were successful was because of something else.

People like Little Richard and Chuck Berry seemed to drift into limbo and just repeat themselves.

They’ve been doing that for so long, though. By the time we started they were already doing that.

Jerry Lee Lewis was the same — though he is slightly different,’cause I do quite like some of his country things.

Presley?

I never really liked him. Presley hasn’t got anyone to tell him what to do and really that’s what he needs more than anything else. His trouble is that it was always a question of making money. So Elvis is still fantastically successful — why? Because he makes money and he made his comeback because of Tom Jones or whatever. Anyway, that’s what I’ve been told.

The Stones never blew their integrity.

I suppose not, though some people might say we have. But we’ve been through a lot of different sorts of periods of music.

I mean, the first time we started performing our own songs we had people coming up to us after the gig and really slagging us off — saying, what rubbish. A lot of it had to do with the fact that our first songs were all ballads — you know, things like “Tell Me” and “As Tears Go By.” Come to think of it, “As Tears Go By” is hardly the stuff you’d expect from a rock-and-roll blues band.

But you’ve got to understand, we were influenced by all the pop thing that was going on around us and so we went through that whole pop era which is kind of like Aftermath and the earlier things.

There are some nice things on Between the Buttons.

Well, I never really liked... Well, tell me one (Pleads) — just one song.

O.K. then, “Back Street Girl?”

That’s the only decent song. The rest of it is more or less rubbish. Oh yes, there is another one that’s good called “Connection,” which is more or less Keith on his own.

Yeah, that’s a good one, but other than that it’s a terrible album. That’s when I started getting out of the pop thing and leaving all that behind.

Who was writing what songs?

Well, I used to write nearly all the words in that period. That was my contribution, though quite often Keith used to write the words until Between The Buttons. And then, in a very modest way, I started writing the tunes as well.

“Angie” is kind of a throwback to the “Back Street Girl,” “Lady Jane,” “You Better Move On” ballads which we used to do. We’ve always done that and they’ve always come off. If the song has been halfway good we somehow always manage to sell. I don’t always want to come off with a rocker. It’s important to try and do something else, so that’s why we did “Angie.” I suppose it didn’t come off so well in some places, but it did come off pretty well around the world.

Were you disconcerted by the general thumbs down Satanic Majesties received?

I can’t remember reading the reviews as I was so befuddled at the time.

Actually, I don’t take much notice of critics and reviews, but a lot of bands do.

Look, it’s only one man’s opinion and he’s doing it for a living — so in most cases he’s a hack. No one can seriously review every album given them with all their heart and soul. It’s impossible.

But there are those who take their job seriously.

But a lot of bands, especially new bands, really take reviews to heart and will change their music.-

If the reviewers in CREEMand Rolling Stone come out and say, ‘This is a load of shit and they should go back to their style of whatever’ a band might do it and it might be quite the wrong decision for that band to make.

You’ve had this with people saying they prefer mid-period Stones.

Yeah, sure they do — and I say if you really go into each album there’s always something that represents each of our periods.

We don’t do it intentionally. Like saying let’s go into the studio and do something we used to do around ’64 and then something we did in ’67, but it does work out like that. An album or a single only represents the mood you were in at the time it was written and recorded.

Say, if you’re madly in love with some chick and you’re touring America, or say you’re very lonely or anything, and you writs a whole bunch of songs to record — you’re never ever going to recreate that mood once you’ve come back to London in the middle of winter. You’re , not going to write those songs again.

Songwriting and playing is a mood. Like the last album we did was basically recorded in short concentrated periods. Two weeks here, two weeks there — then another two weeks. And, similarly, all the writing was concentrated so that you get the feel of one particular period of time. Three months later it’s all very different and we won’t be writing the same kind of material as Goat’s Head Soup.

"The thing that bugs me is that I get treated like the Grandfather of Pop."

What I’m saying is that you can write and play to order.

Were the Stones ever influenced by the Flower of Power movement?

That was a load of crap. There was nothing about love, peace and flowers in “Jumping Jack Flash.”

Come to think of it, maybe the reason why the Stones are still going is because we’ve always been sufficiently aware of what’s going on to be influenced but not so that we slavishly follow trends.

Do you regularly check out the competition?

It’s very difficult to know what the competition is. I remember when The Bachelors were the biggest selling recording act in England — I never bothered to check them out. I remember The Monkees {Laughs). . . The Dave Clark Five (Laughs).

I like to go and see bands and check out what they’re doing. And sometimes I like to go and see people whose music I might not like but whose attitude I might enjoy.

Do you see anyone emerging similar to The Rolling Stones?

There’s a lot of, bands that have definitely got the attitude and a lot of bands who are just as exciting, perhaps more exciting. You know it’s a bit difficult for me to assess.

I think it’s a lot to do with the audience. .. it is the audience that makes an exciting show. I went to see Mott The Hoople at Hammersmith and that was' pretty good. Playing-wise, they weren’t the greatest band in the world to be quite honest, but they were exciting and they got the audience together.

I think for what they do Slade are good. I really liked them at first — thought now I’ve got a bit bored with their singles and the voice has become very grating. They’re an exciting band, but lack variety. (Laughs).

What’s your reaction to bands like the New York Dolls who make no secret about copying the Stones?

I don’t think they’re very good. They’re alright if you want a good laugh, but they’re so very camp and silly.

I mean, one of them is quite pretty in a funny sort of way, but they’re not very good players and that bloke can’t sing. They’re alright for a laugh, and for all I know they might be the biggest thing to emerge in 1974, but I don’t really care either way.

"They thought *we can Jnever have a guy like that in a film, he’s a junkie Satanist!"

A lot of new bands have become mercenary to the extent that money’s become more important to them than the enjoyment of playing.

I think that’s a good attitude. You should want to go out and make it with the first record. It’s much harder to make it now than it ever was.

Everyone has seen everything — wait, maybe that’s not quite true, because the very young kids haven’t seen anything, so you’re really starting all over again. And that’s why there’s Donny Osmond.

And David Bowie?

Yeah, Bowie — but Bowie had something to offer that was sort of trendy. . . ’ere. . . well. . . I wonder how long Bowie’s going to last. . . I really shouldn’t talk about him because I know him too well and I knew his fears and his hauntings.

Have you any fears?

No, I’ve always been far too busy.

How have you managed to retain your equilibrium?

You’ve either got it or you haven’t.

I mean, life is scarey, and everyone’s got to go off the deep end sometime or other. You can’t remain perfectly stable all of the time.

Just being on stage or recording is a great outlet for one’s neuroses. You can get rid of all your fears or pent up energies in songs or just screaming and carrying on while you’re up there on stage. Some people are neurotic and some people aren’t and some people can see through things, while the others get taken in by them. We all get taken in by them — taken in by all these games.

I mean, why do people want to be popular? People vying in competition in the charts, which is like a rat-race with the claws fully bared. The competition for . adulation, admiration — physical and intellectual. It’s a very bizarre way of carrying on.

Soon as you stop you think, God, what am I doing?

It’s alright when you’re seventeen, you don’t know these things, you just do them. You want to be popular with all the girls on the beach, but after a while you start to think: Why do all these people do it?

Money! Money is pretty level-headed compared to all the other things you want. If you want money at least there are things you can do with it. But it’s adulation that most people are after.

When you attained success, were you elated or disenchanted?

I was elated, but struck through with cynicism, ’cause you can’t help laughing at the funny way people behave. Whereas before you were plain ordinary, now you weren’t — you were suddenly being treated in another way. The thing is, you just don’t know how people are going to treat you until you’ve reached that level that you thought you wanted to reach.

When you reach it you may not like it, which accounts for the way a lot of people behave. They work hard for success and when they finally achieve it they don’t like it or can’t handle it — there’s hundreds of those. I don’t mean obvious Casualties Of Rock, as some of you call them in the music papers. Just people that you know who can’t handle their success or fell to pieces when they lost it.

Would you do it all over again?

No, of course not. Well, not after you’ve done it once (Laughs). Surely that’s more than enough?

I’d like to do something else, but we’re taught from a very early age that failure is the worst thing that can happen to a person. For instance, in school the one who can give the quickest answer is the teacher’s pet. They’ll pick on a kid that’s a bit slow and demand: Why don’t you know the answer? The whole class knows and one kid doesn’t, Jesus, he’s made to feel inferior.

It’s not a team it’s more like a trial by ordeal. So whether we’re gonna be soldiers or rock-and-roll singers we’ve got to be the best — we mustn’t fail and everyone has gotta be trampled underfoot, and you do have to trample other people underfoot.

Why? Because someone has got to win and someone has got to lose — and that’s not what music’s about at all. It’s not on. The industry and society, the media and everything else foster competition in every field. Especially in pop music or in any field of entertainment. You’re just built up to be put down. A footballer is built up to be put down and it’s the same with a musician — manipulated by the media and by the people who control them.

Following your rather convincing appearance in Performance, why is it you didn’t pursue this facet of your career?

Well, as a film Performance really wasn’t successful, so therefore I wasn’t very successful in it.

To a certain extent it was successful, but to film people, i.e. the industry, it had a very strange effect which no one could really work out, least of all me. I mean, it seemed a pretty ordinary film to me.

Were you satisfied with your own portrayal?

Yeah, I thought it was alright considering it was my first attempt.

How much of it was you and how much of it was the director?

None of it was me. It was a team effort between the director and me. He suggests what you should do and you either do it or you don’t.

I wasn’t portraying myself (Laughs), and that’s precisely what people thought I was — but then that’s what acting is. Making people believe that’s what you are.

When coupled with the theme of “Jumping Jack Flash, ” you did take on this almost Satanic aura, didn’tyou?

Yeah, well that was the thing. The game, the occult. Some people are still doing it.

You know, I am interested in the occult, but all that was a bit silly really. Nevertheless, it’s incredible the effect on some people just by that film, and I’m not talking about audiences. People in the film industry really thought that I was like that and they’d seen hundreds of films featuring hundreds of actors that weren’t anything like the parts they portrayed. People acting as soldiers or officers but who’d never been in the army. People acting as though they were upperclass when in fact they were from the gutter.

When I came along and did that film they thought Jesus, we can never have a guy like that in a film, he’s — a junkie Satanist.

They believe every piece of it, which makes me laugh! Bloody incredible! I’ll tell you, it’s very difficult to do that sort of role at six o’clock in the morning.

CONTINUED ON PAGE 74.

"Between the Buttons is a terrible album... more or less rubbish."

CONTINUED FROM PAGE 55.

Given the opportunity, would you like to pursue a movie career?

Yes, I’d like to do films, but I don’t want to do the kind of films that people want me to do, which is to always play rock and roll singers.

There are only a few good films made every year — three or four, maybe five in English. And most of the parts in those few good films always go to the same people.

If you’re thinking about women — Mia Farrow, Faye Dunaway — you can quickly count them off. And the men — Paul Newman, Clint Eastwood, Steve McQueen, Robert Redford — they get the same parts and so you know you just don’t get a chance.

You went through a great deal of trouble to set up your own record label and despite this you still encountered heavy resistance when attempting to put the title of “Starfucker” on the sleeve of Goat’s Head Soup. How come?

It was delayed for two months because they’re having all this trouble in America with these anti-pornography laws and Atlantic were incredibly untight.

That s very strange when you consider that in America you can go into most big record stores and buy a hardcore porn album?

Right. I mean Billy Preston was made to change the title of a song orginally called “All Spaced Out,” which was like only an instrumental.

But with Goat’s Head Soup, they wanted to exclude “Starfucker” altogether. They got the complete horrors and screamed we’re gonna be sued and everyone else got the horrors and I said I don’t mind if I’m sued. I mean, I just fought and fought and fought... I can’t bear it all... that finished me.

It said, it’s our fucking label!

In reality it’s not worth it. No, it’s not worth the energy I spent on it and the time, trouble and pressures people try and force on me.

Do you know who your friends are?

Yes, of course — but I like to make new friends. I’m not one of those people who just sticks with the people I knew ten years ago.

There must be people who want to befriend you for who you are, as opposed to what kind of bloke you are.

Yeah, but I think I can sort those ones out pretty quickly. I know the people who like me.

Returning to the band, I thought the Wembly gigs were among the best Stones shows I’ve ever seen. It’s a pity you can t get out front yourself and see the band.

Well, I went out front at Hammersmith to see Mott The Hoople. I mean, I was in the audience some of the time until David Bowie started pullin’ some girl’s hair, then we had to leave.

Finally, how do you feel about Rock & Roll wives?

Aaaahhhhhh — I hate ’em. All of ’em, unless they’re talented — which few of them are. Fortunately, there’s only a couple of ’em around, but honestly I don’t know how they have the nerve to continue in the face of their appalling failure (Laughs).

(courtesty of the New Musical Express)