(Though you'll hear an occasional word from the dark side of the room to the effect that they've overshot their best years, the Rolling Stones have weathered the last twelve years in admirable form. And they continue to defend their turf actively: by now the new documentary movie should be at a theatre in your neighborhood, and on the way are a new studio album (untitled as we go to press) and a Bill Wyman solo album called Monkey Grip. And you're never very far from the rumblings about roadwork. In this interview, taped in London, Mick dagger takes a backward glance at those twelve years and more. The concluding half will be presented next month. - Ed.)

What sort of kid were you?

Well, me Mum is very working-class, my Father bourgeoise, because he had a reasonably good education, so I came from somewhere in between that. Neither one or the other.

Did you have a strict upbringing?

Not particularly, it wasn't as bad as some of my friends. I never got to have a raving adolescence between the age of twelve to fifteen, because I was concentrating on my studies, but then that's what I wanted to do and I enjoyed it.

When did you first become aware of music?

Oh, when I was very, very young. I used to listen to everything from the BBC to Radio Luxembourg. If a child is musical, you can see that in children of two years old, especially nowadays. You'll see some children of two years old dance and others that don't, which doesn't mean to say that they'll become musicians — just that they're aware of music and, by the time they're around three, they'll distinguish between the kind of music they like and the kind they don't.

You see, we didn't have a record player at home and my immediate family wasn't really musical, and Chris was only about two at the time and as far as I was concerned he was nothing more than a punch bag and I used to beat* him up regularly, but then that's quite a common thing with brothers.

It wasn't until I was about twelve that I became really interested in pop.

Was there anyone around at that time who you would have liked to have been?

No, I can't remember anybody, not until later. When I was thirteen the first person I really admired was Little Richard. I wasn't particularly fond of Elvis or Bill Haley... they were very good, but for some reason they didn't appeal to me. I was more into Jerry Lee Lewis, Chuck Berry and a bit later Buddy Holly.

There was a lot of TV then... Cool For Cats, 6-5 Special and Oh Boy. . . and I saw a lot of people on those shows. But rock started over here around 1955, which was a bit before all that. 1 mean, l missed all that Teddy Boy era. I wasn't into that at all. I never even saw it, "cept for the tail-end and I wasn't particularly impressed.

Were you an extrovert in those days?

I don't know, I never indulged in self-analysis at that time in my life.

Well, were you a popular kid at school?

Don't know, I don't think so, but then I wasn't particularly unpopular. Truthfully, I can't remember too much about those days. I was just an ordinary rebellious, studious hard-working kid. I really did used to work hard at school.

Did you have many girlfriends at that time?

Yeah. Basically the thing at that period was that you used to just try and find girls that would screw. The rest of it was just... yer know, I mean, it wasn't quite as easy then as it is now. Since the invention of the Pill, it's become so much easier.

In those days, it was a big deal. You were just discovering yourself and your own body. . . Kinda weird.

Were you pleased or disappointed when you first got laid?

No. I wasn't disappointed. I've always found sex very exciting, but I didn't suffer.

I was very emotional at that time, but then most adolescents are, like overdramatising situations, and that's why there's always been a very big market for adolescent love songs. You know, those songs that are based on the frustrations of the adolescent. Anyone who understands that, consciously or uncohsciously, and writes fantasies based on that premise gets hits.'

A song like "Young Love,"" which was very popular when l was around fourteen, was a heart-hugging song when you were that age-. It's the same with Donny Osmond.

When did you discover rhythm "n" blues?

When I was around thirteen or fourteen. I became interested in blues firstly when I found out that it as much as existed. It was never played on the radio and, if it was, it was only by accident. Things that were hits in America, but never over here.

1 subsequently became aware that Big Bill Broonzy was a blues singer and Muddy Waters was also a blues singer and they were all really the same and it didn't matter. There were no divisions! and I'd realised that by the time I was fifteen.

Had you started to play guitar by then?

Yeah, I had started about then.. .

There was traditional jazz and skiffle — people tend to forget just how enormous that was. I mean the big thing then was to form a skiffle group, which was a very easy thing to do and was what most bands of the day did. (Skiffle was a folk-derived form of pop music that won wide acceptance in England before the onset of R&B, characterized by a shuffling beat. It s foremost practitioner was Lonnie Donegan of "Rock Island Line" fame. - Ed.) But they were also playing rock and roll numbers.

Nearly every guitarist was a folk player, but they also played "Baby Let's Play House or whatever was on the charts that week. And that was it.

And that's where English rock and roll started... With skiffle groups.

Were you ever in a skiffle group?

Oh yeah, I was in loads of skiffle groups... Well, I used to play with Dick Taylor, who was a folk guitarist and another friend of mine who I went to college with.

When did your friendship with Keith Richard begin?

Well, we went to school together when we were about seven.

Were you aware of his presence?

Yeah, we lived in the same block. We weren't great friends, but we knew each other.

We also knew each other when we left school. . I went to Grammar School while Keith went to another school in the same village, so I used to see Keith riding to school on his bike. Then I saw him again when he used to catch the train to get to school and I was on the same train to attend college.

When did you decide that you wanted to play music together?

I don't really know when it was... Offhand, I think it was when we were around seventeen. I used to go round to his house, and play records and guitar, then after that we'd go to other people's houses. We just used to play anything. .. Chuck Berry stuff.

Keith's still playing Chuck Berry stuff...

(Laughs) I try to avoid it as much as possible..,

Personally, I don't really like talking about those days — firstly because I don't remember it too well and secondly because I seem to tell the story differently each time. All that is very hazy, "cause I forget everything and get all the years mixed up and everything wrong. '/

I can't even remember three years ago. Get all the dates wrong. I mean, I can't really remember when w& first went to America... It's written down somewhere so I've got to go and look that one up.

When did you realise that it might be possible to make a living out of music?

At the time I didn't have any idea of how I was going to make a living. I remember the first time I played with Alexis Korner I made a pound or ten bob.

What about the story that you didn't broadcast with Alexis because the Stones had a booking on the same night?

That's a lie. Alexis had a band and Charlie was the drummer. He had this BBC broadcast which was a big deal — but instead of having Charlie, who was in the band, he got someone else because he said Charlie wasn't a professional musician, "cause he had some other job as well.

"I just wanted to make hits and I didn't really care what it was."

I didn't really expect to go on the broadcast because I was only one of his singers.. . Alexis used to sing, so did Cyril (Davies), Long John Baldry, Ronnie Jones, Paul Jones. But the thing is, we didn't have any gigs at all. We had a gig that night but it was one that Alexis had given us. I think that must have been our very first gig.

I can remember seeing you at The Marquee when the band was billed as" Mick dagger and Brian Jones and The Rolling Stones. Was this indicative of a joint leadership?

We only played down The Marquee about half a dozen times. As to who was the leader. .. Well, Brian used to want to be, but nobody really wanted to be the leader of the band — it seemed a rather outmoded idea.

Even though we were all working together Brian desperately wanted to be the leader, but nobody ever accepted him as such. I don't mean within the band, I mean with the kids. Up until then it d been accepted by the public that the singer with the band was the leader and, as I just happened to be the singer, most people automatically singled me out as the leader.

Brian used to really get upset... I didn't give a shit who was the leader of the band. I mean, I don't want to be the leader of the band now, let alone then.

So who used to choose the material for the Stones?

We all did. There were certain specialty numbers.

Like "featuring the drummer?"

No, he never wanted to play anything. Charlie never could play a solo, and don't believe him when he says he only joined the band on a temporary basis (tlaughs) — it was the only gig he could get. But really Charlie didn't want to join the band because we didn't have any gigs.

Who was looking after the business side of the band at that time?

The first cat we had who looked after the band was Giorgio Gomelsky. He was a kind person was Giorgio, because we really didn't care about anybody — just took advantage of everybody. We thought everybody was against us.

What made you think that?

Well, they were, basically. We were very hard to get on with — very proud. We knew we were good and we were.. . For the time we were very good.

There was just nobody else doing it. If Giorgio put us on in front of an audience we used to make them go crazy in two numbers, but there were other people who used to get really uptight and make things difficult. We were booked as the interval band and we made it tough for the band who had to go on after us — the same old story.

You see, we knew we were good because of the crowd reaction, but still we wouldn't get any gigs. We didn't hang around that long, but at one point we did have a very bad time when we just couldn't get any gigs whatsoever. If we did get a gig it always used to go very, very well and because of this we couldn't understand why nobody would book us.

It was nothing but professional jealousy. Nobody wanted a band looking like us and playing what we wanted to play, because they couldn't understand anyone wanting to hear it.

Considering this apathy towards you in the business, were you suspicious of Andrew Loog Oldham when he appeared?

I'm not suspicious-nature d, you know. In fact I'm a rather free and open-minded person. Even now, I don't get suspicious of people.

Did you believe all the things Oldham said he could do for the Stones?

No, not really, but it was still very exciting. I mean, we really wanted to be very big... you gotta want to be that big, you gotta really want to be a big star.

Bill (Wyman) says that the material you were playing changed to a certain degree when you switched from the clubs to the ballroom circuit?

When we started, we were just playing blues and rhythm-and-blues because that's what we liked. We were playing it well and nobody else was doing it. We were doing up to three hour sets.

Now, when we went into the ballrooms we used to see other bands and we listened to what they were playing and picked up a lot of new numbers. Things that might not have been current, but were popular ballroom numbers of the time. You know, thines like "I .Can Tell" and "Poison Ivy." We knew "em anyway, but had never gotten around to actually playing them.

I can remember buying Barrett Strong's "Money" which was a really big R&B hit in America, but didn't happen when it came out in England. When we saw that those things were popular we said, well — let's do that. So we did.

There's a recent spate of bootlegs containing much of the material the Stones recorded at IBC about a year before "Come On. " Who owns that material?

I don't know who owns it. I suppose we own it as much as anybody.

Whose decision was it to record "Come On" as the Stones debut single?

Ours. Nobody else knew it and to the best of our knowledge nobody had done it. I don't think it was very good, in fact it was shit... It really was shit, God knows how it ever got in the charts, it was such a hype.

In fact we disliked it somuch we didn't do it on any of our gigs. I remember playing at the Scene Club in Ham Yard that Ronan O'Reilly used to run. It was quite a nice club — anyway, Andrew came down and watched the set and we didn't do "Come On" which was our record at the time, and he said why didn't we play it, and we told him that we didn't really like it.

You gotta do it, he yelled. He didn't want to know that we thought it was horrible. Eventually we did it in the ballrooms and the people seemed to dig it.

How much of a creative influence was Oldham on the Stones?

I don't really know. I'd have to go through all the records one by one to answer that.

He had some influence but on what is a different matter. It was not so much on what numbers we did, but that he helped to get the whole thing going, making sure things were done and encouraging us.

.. . Vm a rather free and open-minded person. Even now, / don't get suspicious of people. 99

It was Andrew who encouraged us to write. Our first songs was "It Should Be You" and was recorded by George Bean on Decca.. . the late George Bean. Actually he was quite a nice bloke.

Keith was quoted as saying that quite a number of tracks on the first album were just demos or unfinished tracks.

I don't remember it being like that. There were a couple of demos on it. "Tell Me" was one of them.

What was your first impression of Phil Spector when he dropped by on one of the sessions with Gene Pitney?

About the same as he is now, except he was a bit more successful then.

Spector was a very great influence on Andrew. I mean, Andrew was so openly influenced by him that it was disgraceful. Andrew really didn't have too many original ideas at all, he just nicked — that was Andrew's philosophy.

However, it was Andrew who helped us to write and made sure that we actually wrote our own material. Andrew may have put a lot of wrong ideas into our heads, but who knows. .. We put a lot of wrong ideas into his head.

In the early days of your career the media seemed to be preoccupied with a Beatles[Stones rivalry, which became even more acute when the Stones„ recorded "I Wanna Be Your Man. " Was this just a press hype or were you aware that maybe the Beatles were immediate competition, and vice-versa?

It's pretty weird when you think about it now — The Beatles were very blase, — successful, rich. They just didn't seem to care about anything.

Sure they were very creative but somehow they just seemed to regard it all as a joke — and it was. The Beatles were so ridiculously popular, it was so stupid. They never used to play — they just used to go on making so much bread, it was crazy.

Did this inhibit you?

To be truthful, I never really wanted to be like that, but there was something about it that wasn't really right. It didn't ring true and we kind of knew it. But then, everybody knew it.

Well then, did you want to record "/ Wanna Be Your Man?"

Did I want to.., I just wanted to make hits and I didn't really care what it was. I knew that we just couldn't go on indefinitely making reworks of old R&B hits* I had realised that it was wrong as far as singles were concerned.

Sure, you could do that on albums, but we needed new material for our singles. I quite liked "I Wanna Be Your Man," we did it in quite an original way with steel guitar which nobody was using on pop singles around that time. It was pretty funky.

Aside-from recording a Beatles song, did you get on with them socially?

Yeah, I suppose so though we didn't really get on with them very much, if you know what I mean. The Beatles were so blase and, at times, difficult. They would put up barriers which came from I don't know — having far too many people approaching them. They got very big-headed.

It happened very quickly for them in England, they were just young guys from the provinces and didn't want to let anybody know. But at that time, it seemed that every main town in England had some kind of musical rivalry going.

Funnily enough, I noticed the other day when I went to see Mott The Hoople that they still have a different style. Aren't they from the Midlands, "cause they sound like a Birmingham band to me and they don't "alf play weird on stage — very different. I can remember the first time the Stones ever went to Liverpool the drummers played completely different. I can't quite remember what it was, but I do know that they played four-to-the-bar on the bass drum as opposed to what dummers in the south played a more choppy pattern.

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They did have a very different sound, and anyway this is all going on, and the other thing was all those harmonies. We didn't have any harmonies, we were much more into the actual playing aspect — quite loose, but nevertheless, very tight in our own particular way.

So when we went on the road we vaguely made an attempt to get the harmqnies together which was always a bit of a joke. Which they still are. Bad and sloppy.

Great emphasis was placed by the Establishment on the supposed yobbo image of the Stones. ..

There still is, dear, (laughs). There's not a lot of difference.

Was this by accident or intent and how much did Andrew contribute to perpetrating this imagery?

That was his job. What was he there for if not to publicise the band? It's every manager's job to control the media. We really did want to be stars, that's why I don't really regret anything.

Did you ever find yourselves feeling everything was going wrong?

Oh yeah, because they were going completely the wrong way around 1964, the beginning of "65.

When we first went to America I thought, this isn't what it's; really all about and not what we're supposed to do. We had these recurring crises in the band about what we were supposed to be doing in relationship to what we originally set out to do — what we hadn't done with regard to what we had done.

The image that came across in the fan magazines at that time seemed to portray you as extremely narcissistic?

Of course we were, every band is narcissistic — that's the whole trip. They all think they're beautiful, even the ones with the bent noses and the goggly eyes. We didn't thing we were pretty like some bands, but we thought we were bloody good.

When it became commonplace for J.P.s, M.P.s and other "civic dignitaries" to put the Stones down publicly as a bad influence on teenagers, what was your reaction?

We thought it was hilarious. It was just publicity and we didn't even have to bother to go along with it, it just sorta happened outside of us.

When you get the ball going they do it all for you, especially in this country.

You don't have to do do a thing, the media will pick up on it and exaggerate it beyond recognition. If they just get so much as a smell of a story they'll make it up or get a quote and turn it around to suit themselves.

I don't have to tell you... the media need a story and the bands need to be publicised.

Did you ever model yourself on anyone?

No, who was there around to model myself on?

So many artists have been caught up in the James Dean syndrome.

I never really liked James Dean. I'm not sure if I ever saw any of his movies. Might have seen East of Eden but the poor sod only made three. Oh yes, I saw Giant the other night on TV.

Yeah, I suppose he was a really good actor, but I never tried to model myself on him or any other person. You see, I never really wanted to an actor, like say, Adam Faith5. I always wanted to be a rock and roll star and that was enough.

At one period the media seemed to focus on Brian as personifying the visual image of the Stones, and then quickly switched back to you. Did this cause any internal friction?

Like I said, I never really wanted to be the leader, but somehow I automatically got all the attention. I had the most recognisable features etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, though I didn't really know or care. Brian cared a lot, but it didn't .worry me.

That was the thing that messed Brian up — because he was desperate for attention. He wanted to be admired and loved and all that... which he was by a lot of people, but it wasn't enough for him.

Brian often appeared to be the odd one out in the triangle which you and he and fCeith made up. Unable to relate simultaneously to both of you.

There was a lot of that. Three's a crowd — which is a teenage situation. Nevertheless it was very true.

Keith was my friend from way back, but he was also close to Brian, which was great for the band. However, there were terrible periods when everyone was against Brian which was stupid, but then on the other hand Brian was a very difficult person to get on with and he didn't help.

Aftermath was a very important album for the Stones, wasn't it?

Yeah, it was a good album and the first one for which we wrote all the songs. Looking back on it, that album wasn't that well done, but there were some very good songs on it like "Coin" Home," "Out Of Time" and "Lady Jane." It sold, but I didn't always know how many.

It never really worried me how many albums we sold. You see, I was only really interested in making records and didn't really care about the royalties. Oh, I got a lot of money and I spent a lot of money, but never the royalties as such.

I don't get royalties now, I get advances until a particular record has sold over a certain amount and then I get some more.. It's just another way of doing it.

Honestly, I don't really care how many they sell.

Personally I still get a good rush from the first Stones album. How about you?

It actually got in the Top 10 albums. I suppose it's O.K., but on the other hand we made some extremely bad records.

Around 1965/66 all you seemed to be doing was touring and making hit singles and albums without a break. How did you manage to keep up the pace and at the same time remain so prolifically creative?

I don't know. We spent very little time in the studio cutting each record.

Could it have been the spontaneity that made them so good?

They weren't really all that raw. Our first ones were — maybe it was down to the fact that we had learned all about working in a studio beforehand.

Did America live up to your expectations when you went over for the first time? '

I was knocked out. Things seemed to be open all night and everything was so exciting and there was a lot of energy. Also a lot of things made us laugh.

We were very unsuccessful at first but we still liked it. You see, we knew that we just had to make it in America.

There we were touring all over the place on our own and nobody seemed to know us. Touring on our own wasn't too bad in a way, but there was this total apathy building up from just about everyone. Everything was all wrong.

Nobody has ever done it all in one go... it takes time to "conquer" America. It took the Beatles two years to break through in the States.

Well, the Beatles arrival at Kennedy Airport must have been the most carefully planned welcoming party ever.

How do you call it — a junket. But from "Love Me Do" to "I Want To Hold Your Hand" was two years. It took us two years to make it over there.

What kind of groupies did the Stones used to attract?

Great ugly ones — dreadful Northern ones with long black hair, plastic boots and macs. Ugh.

It used to be so terribly sordid (laughs) — still is really. Thankfully, the girls are much prettier now than they were then.

Hey, do you remember when girls nearly always seemed to have backcombed hair? I didn't like them. I used to go for the type with the straight black hair which was usually dyed. Oh God, they were so ugly.

In the States the girls were pretty good. Much younger and very clean. Not quite so rainy (laughs), not such a rainy day.

Be that as it may, you've always appeared to have maintained a regular lady. How important is a prolonged relationship with a woman to you?

Actually, if you're a musician I think it's very good not be be with anybody, and just live on your own. Domesticity is death.

You see, the trouble with most musicians is that they're too domesticated. A musician doesn't spend too much time at home; he's on the road living out of a suitcase. Then when he gets back home he tends to become very domesticated.

In fact, you enjoy the best of both worlds. It's taken me years to start buying furniture — I still don't have hardly anything and what I've got is falling to pieces.

I Can't stand to stay in one place for , too long. I'm not trying to say that women aren't important — they are. I like my lady to come with me; but I don't like to stay in one place in the same way as say The Faces or David Bowie who spend an awful long time at home with their old ladies and families.

How have you adapted to the role of being a father?

I've always looked after children and I've never really cared if they're my own or other people's. It all depends on the child.

What kind of education do you envision for your daughter Jade?

A very varied one. I'd like her to go to an ordinary school so that she'd understand all sides of life. I don't particularly like education over here.

Well, the whole system appears to be on the verge of breaking down.

(Laughs) I don't know — I haven't been to school lately. It was when I was there and it doesn't seem that much difference now. I mean, there were 40 in a class at grammar school and how the hell can you teach 40 grammar school kids at a time? It's impossible. It's much better to have six in a class like wh*n I went to college at 16, and that's why I got a reasonable education..

As a matter of fact, I took a correspondence course in History and French.

In some ways the impetus of Aftermath. was cut short with the release oj the Beatles" Revolver and Dylan's Blonde on Blonde. Was this any cause for concern on your part?

I never liked Revolver very much. I don't like the Beatles.

I'm not saying that I never liked anything they did and J'm not saying that they didn't influence me, because it's impossible not to be influenced by them. I didn't particularly like Revolver — I mean, "Good Day Sunshine," there's nothing in that. It's rubbish, though I suppose there were some good things on the album.

Now Blonde on Blonde was a good album, I really liked that..

One could detect certain Dylanesque influences, especially lyrically, in some of the Stones material of that period.

But don't forget everyone was working at the same time, in the same countries, under very much the same conditions — so you're bound to encounter certain similarities.

How did the idea for Their Satanic Majesties Request materialize?

Well, we were just so pissed off with doing what we did and didn't want to go in the studio and cut another rock and roll album, so we just went in and did that. We didn't write anything beforehand. All we had to begin with was just a few riffs and that's what came — which wasn't surprising under the circumstances.

It sounded acid-laced to say the least.

Well, that's what was going on at the time.

What effect did acid have you your personality?

(Laughs) It drove me completely insane. No — I'm joking.

You know what I mean, some took the trip like Eric Burdon and.. .

.. \ and never came back. We came back in 1968. It didn't give me permanent brain damage or anything at all like that. I shouldn't really own up to it even now. I took it before it was made illegal... well, isn't that what people used to say?

Actually, speaking of Burdon, the last time I saw him he kept yelling "Beer And Acid" at me, which was very peculiar at the time as well. However, I quite enjoyed it. .. I thought it was lovely.

At the time of those busts'it appeared that the Establishment was trying to make an example of somebody and the Stones were the perfect scapegoats.

Yeah, that's right. But the thing is they destroyed Brian in the process, which isn't very nice.

Actually, you really can't, recreate what happened, but it was very heavy and I can remember it quite well. It was enough to put anybody down and a very difficult time for anyone unless you're a criminal and know what you're up against.

How did you feel about being imporisoned in Lewes jail?

It was disgraceful. Disgraceful.

I didn't feel alone while I was in there because I knew that a lot of people disagreed with how we were being treated, but on the other hand I felt that people were just using us. Now if you do that kind of thing to some people it makes them strong and if you do it to others it can quickly destroy them and it destroyed Brian, which was very sad.

He just couldn't take it.

To the bystander it seemed like victimisation. As though every move that Brian made was watched.

Yes, and he made a lot of wrong moves. But Brian wasn't doing anyone else any harm. He was followed all the time, but then we all were. It was a systematic campaign of harassment.

How close did you come to being committed to jail?

I think I came quite close. Brian really came close to doing six months and a friend actually did .six months. I think it was all so disgraceful and very stupid and so English.

What effect did all this have upon Brian as a musician?

It brought him down and completely destroyed that side of him as well.

Did this make you bitter?

No. It just made me understand what people are like.

Actually, I'd never thought about it until then. Before, I'd always believed that the Police were like nice and helpful, but now I know. It really opened my eyes and now I know exactly what they're like.

You grow up and learn. As far as Brian was concerned it wasn't only that, there must have been other contributing factors, but it finished him off.

How much of a vacuum did Brian leave in the band?

We weren't playing, that was the thing, but we were recording a lot of good material on our own, the four of N us.

Brian played on some of Beggar's Banquet — not all of it. Let's say he was helpful I don't exactly know how many tracks he played on but that was his album. We did Let It Bleed without him.

But Brian wasn't around towards the end. What we didn't like was that we wanted to play on stage and Brian wasn't in any condition to play. He couldn't play. He was far too messed up in his mind tcrplay.

Surely this must have affected the morale of the Stones?

It did, we felt like we had a wooden leg. We wanted to go out and play byt Brian couldn't. I don't think that he really wanted to and it was this that really pissed me off. He didn't have any desire to go on stage and play.

Let's talk about something else.

CONTINUED NEXT ISSUE.